Why 9/11 was not a government conspiracy

ineptsegue's picture

ineptsegue
(Beingism Founder)

...and neither were any other terrorist attacks.These are my personal thoughts on the matter, and should not be confused with official views of Beingism.

I recently received a message from an associate in the impeachment movement claiming the following:

For those of you who have yet to unveil the truth about what has been happening around the world, almost every terrorist attack that has happened since Oklahoma city has been perpetrated by government intelligence agencies. Lets go down the list shall we. OK city, 1st World Trade Center bombing, 911, London bombing, train bombing in Spain, Bali bombing, Pakistan hotel bombing, and the latest botched goverment sponsored terrorist act.........................Mumbai. That's a pretty big statement eh? I am prepared to defend it. I will deliver a documentary on any of the above mentioned topics if anyone dare know the info.

Now, I don't know for sure. But it seems to me that this is not at all plausible, and without going into actual specific claims made by the folks who espouse these kinds of ideas (which would have us bickering indefinitely), here's why.

You would need an incredible level of secrecy needed to carry out something like this, especially in a society that is as open as ours is. Whatever you think of mainstream news, it is not capable of covering up a story about a government conspiracy to kill people. Most reporters would, if given half a chance, blow the top off such a conspiracy in a heartbeat, and any such conspiracy would require getting a lot of people involved. Dick Cheney can’t just get on the horn and bark an order to blow up a couple of towers. It would require intricate planning, expenditure of resources, and involvement of countless people to plan it, implement said plan, somehow stop everyone who knew about it from talking, and hide the disappearing resources. Most people—whatever their political views, and regardless of how greedy they may personally be—are just not going to comply with something that blatantly evil. People need to have some way to justify these kinds of behaviors to themselves. When soldiers go to war against other countries, for example, they do it (for example) because they’ve been trained to think about it as a noble crusade to free the people from the terrible dictator there, or because they have vague notions about how it's noble to serve your country in the military. I don’t believe for a moment, however, that the huge number of ordinary people you would need to involve to pull off a massive conspiracy like this could justify to themselves the direct murder of thousands of American citizens, no matter how greedy or neoconservative those people are. They’d expose the conspiracy long before it happened.

Even if we assume that the people supposedly conspiring could justify doing something this horrible to themselves, the chances of getting caught doing it would be extremely high. For one thing, if this is something governments routinely do, surely when doing something this risky, the truth would have come out at least once before. Yet never once has this become generally known about any terrorist attack.

Even if 9/11 was the only attempt to do this, we need to consider that the penalty for getting caught conspiring for everyone involved would almost certainly be death. If it were the Republican leadership who was responsible, failure would also mean ending the Republican Party forever (if not the entire government), because the public would never forgive such a terrible thing. No person with even a grain of sense who wanted to preserve her or his own life, or the organization s/he worked for, would seriously consider undertaking such a task. Anyway, if the supposed government conspirators were going to frame someone for a terrorist attack, I should think that framing Iraqi terrorists for 9/11 (rather than Al Quida) would have provided a better justification for the Iraq invasion and an equally good motivation for the so-called war on terror.

For that matter, there’s really no reason to go through all the trouble to mastermind a terrorist attack on your own country when you’ve already done many things to alienate the Islamic world. All you would need to do is allow an actual attack to happen. Yes, there actually are real terrorists out there who want to hurt America. They’d be happy to kill lots of Americans and provide the powerful with spurious justifications for invasions, civil rights abuses, and so on. There isn’t any motivation for the government to attack the country itself when there are others who already want to do it!

There are a lot of engineers in the world. The overwhelming consensus among them is that the towers collapsed due to planes hitting them. Naturally there are some scientists who dispute everything, including many clear scientific facts such as evolution, the holocaust, or the moon landing, and so it’s natural that there would be some who dispute the real cause of 9/11, which is more ambiguous than the previously mentioned things. If 9/11 had been a conspiracy, why would groups of engineers (who for the most part have no vested interest in holding any particular position on the matter) not cause an outcry? Instead, engineers who have investigated the matter have generally not found evidence that the official explanation is inaccurate. Unless most engineers are in on the conspiracy, or most of them aren’t very good at engineering, or most of them find it so difficult to believe that the official story isn’t true that they’re ignoring the real data—they probably know what they’re talking about. Frankly, I trust engineers to tell me about building structures more than I trust the physics-intuitions of a bunch of untrained people who are highly critical of government.

Are there unexplained aspects of most terrorist attacks? Of course. When any unusual thing happens, we’re naturally not going to understand every aspect of the situation. An unusual or remarkable situation is by definition something with which we have limited experience. In a complex situation such as a terrorist attack,weird stuff is going to come up, and some of it will be hard to explain.

To make matters worse, we’re all working with insufficient facts when we’re talking about these kinds of events. I don’t have firsthand information about what happened, so I have to take other people’s word for it. For every "9/11 Truth" documentary, there’s another report out there explaining what’s wrong with it or saying that they’ve got their facts wrong. It’s often impossible to tell who’s right in these kinds of situations without going to have a look yourself, devoting your life to studying engineering, and so on. Given this, I have to accept that I’m just not that sure about some things. So what do I conclude?

Well, I know there’s a lot of reason to doubt at least some of the people who claim that the official explanation is bogus.I’ve heard (among many other preposterous things) that that 9/11 was a Jewish conspiracy, and I’ve heard people cite what they claim are facts to support this which (if they were true) would sound pretty convincing. My guess is that in this case, the supposed “facts” are just made up in a semiconscious way (often based on a partial truth) by someone down the line and passed on by others who have biases that support something like a Jewish conspiracy. If bias about 9/11 happens to these folks with Anti-Semitic prejudices, I have to believe it’s likely to be affecting other folks as well.

I also know that people are in general highly prone to inventing conspiracy theories about these sorts of things. Take the JFK assassination, or the picture of a face on Mars. When NASA revealed a picture of the surface of Mars that looked like a face from one angle in a certain light but denied that it represented an actual face (it was just a function of the light hitting the mountains at a certain angle), they were accused of covering up life on Mars. People love to invent conspiracy theories to explain almost anything that seems strange or hard to accept, and they tend to do it in ways that support their existing worldviews. That’s why conspiracy theories crop up so consistently around major national or world events. Of this we can be sure: Even if the government had nothing whatever to do with 9/11, conspiracy theories would have cropped up soon after claiming that the official explanation was bogus.

One of the biggest thing that works against all these conspiracy theories for me is that none of many different objections critics have of the official story adds up to a single general theory of what might have happened. Conspiracy theorists can point to a whole bunch of “why the hell did this happen?” kinds of questions, but when you put them all together, they don’t add up to anything that makes sense together. If the government demolished the WTC themselves after planes hit it, what does the collapse of Building 7 have to do with it? Sure, you can come up with theories about this or that particular thing, but there’s no point of view that explains all of the facts any better than the official explanation. Conspiracy theories offer a whole bunch of disparate questions that seem meaningful individually but don’t lend themselves to any particular overall explanation (and different facts lend themselves to different explanations which might contradict each other). This is part of why it’s hard to debunk them—in order to actually find the flaws in a theory, you have to have a defined theory. When theorists can only talk about what’s wrong with other the official story and not present an alternative of their own, you can’t really say much to disprove it.

I don’t question any of this because I’m some kind of gullible fool who thinks that mainstream news is especially comprehensive or unbiased. The mainstream news sources are owned by corporations and—though I would argue that there are definitely serious limits to how much they can do this given that individual reporters make choices—they narrow the range of discussion in this county to a very disturbing and dangerous degree. There’s no conspiracy here, mind you; this is all very straightforward, verifiable, noncontroversial stuff, even though it’s rarely discussed publicly because obviously corporations have an interest in not letting people know about it. When things go wrong in society, it’s rarely conspiracies that are to blame. Instead, it’s often the result of chains of causal effect of many people making decisions that individually may seem innocuous, but collectively add up to very unpleasant ends; it’s also a result of inherent, systemic conflicts of interest.

The other thing to remember is that while mainstream news definitely has serious problems, alternative media sources have them, too. Not only do they lack of resources for investigation by comparison, but they also have their own set of biases. Trusting alternative media sources without a healthy measure of skepticism would be just as foolish as trusting the mainstream media to give you a full and balanced report about what’s going on in the world. Frankly, I don’t trust any news source completely (or even mostly), but you have to work with what you’ve got, so you muddle through with multiple sources.

Even if 9/11 or other terrorist attacks were perpetrated by out government, there are a few things that are pretty much undeniable: Mainstream culture is not going to accept that, probably no matter how much advocates bring up the issues, and those who advocate conspiracy theories are going to be looked at as crackpots by most people. This is likely to cause progressives (who, let's face it, are a lot more likely to buy into this kind of thing than others) to be looked at as crackpots. Therefore, 9/11 conspiracy theories (even if true) trivialize real (if unpublicized) concerns that we all know are realities; genocide, torture, war/terror. Bringing everything back to these conspiracy theories, we ignore these other issues and marginalize the progressive movement—and more people suffer.

-ineptsegue

Appendix A: Questions that 9/11 Conspiracy Theorists need to answer
(Yes, my blog entry has an appendix. Vestigial, but nifty.)

1) Most importantly: What is the testable hypothesis that you are putting forward for what happened (as opposed to the official story)? When looking backward and cherry picking the results, it’s easy to find apparent flaws in an account of something. The accountability comes into play when you put forward a testable alternative theory.

2) If Al Qaeda isn't responsible for 9/11 (or if, as my friend above claimed, it was created by the government itself), what are all the real terrorists created as a result of U.S. imperialism doing?

3) What is the motive for creating a fictional terrorist attack, given that real terrorists actually do exist who would be happy to do it for them?

4) How could such a thing be done, given how difficult it would be and the freedom in our society to investigate such things?

5) Why would so many people be willing risk their lives, the organizations in which they believe, their overwhelming prosperity, and the U.S. government itself in order to create the appearance of a terrorist attack in America?

TwitThis






Comments

Jamey Hecht's picture

Jamey Hecht
(authenticated user)

Your Remarks Regarding 9/11: A Refreshingly Mindful Response

http://poetrypoliticscollapse.blogspot.com/2009/03/our-conversation-on-9...

Do have a look! I think you'll be interested. Thanks, Ineptsegue.

Sincerely,
Jamey

p.s. I tried to post this posting some 5 times, each time receiving an error message indicated that the site had not been able to accept the post. That turned out not to be true, and as a result my posting appears here 5 times. I'm sorry for that, and I tried to mitigate the problem by re-posting each one with edited content to show an explanation of what occurred. your site may have a bug, or I may just be inept on it.

Best,
Jamey

ineptsegue's picture

ineptsegue
(Beingism Founder)

9/11 Denial

Hi Jamey,

Yes, this idea that "staging 9/11 as an inside job... is likely to work only if there actually exists an active network of anti-American terrorists who are deeply committed to killing Americans in response to U.S. policy" seems to me entirely unconvincing. It doesn't even address the idea that a staged attack on American soil is both incredibly risky and doesn't really seem to accomplish anything. I admit I'm a little daunted by the many different objections 9/11 deniers have to the official story, but for the most part I'm incapable of verifying the veracity of these claims without trusting someone who I basically don't have any reason to trust. Also, and correct me if I've missed this in what I've read—there's still no alternative theory to the official theory being presented. All of these objections to the official account add up to nothing coherent at all. Given that this is all incredibly murky at best—even if it were true—and that there's already plenty of verifiable cause to try Cheney/Bush for crimes against humanity, I don't actually see much point in pursuing it further.

Thanks for your comments.. :)

-ineptsegue

PS: I let our webmaster know about the site problems—hopefully we can get that fixed, if indeed it is a problem. Thanks!

ineptsegue's picture

ineptsegue
(Beingism Founder)

>>If you mean the risk of

>>If you mean the risk of having the angry patsies escape the planners' control, yes, that's a risk, but...

When I refer to risk I mean the huge numbers of people you would have to involve on at least some level to orchestrate an attack such as this—for instance, the people who would need to be involved to wire the buildings with explosives and/or allow this to happen. (Since we're not talking about a specific scenario, I can't be too specific—it depends on what's being proposed as an alternative to the official account—it just seems pretty clear that conspiracy of this magnitude involves getting a lot of people involved on some level.)

Also, this implies a tremendous level of control over the world that neither the Republican party nor anyone else seems to possess. I think the person you were on your site mentioned the question of how we reconcile this level of power with a party that just lost an election—faking an election outcome would certainly be much easier than faking a terrorist attack like 9/11. More useful, too.

>>The idea that 9/11 did not accomplish anything is so strange I'm having trouble understanding it.

Oh, of course 9/11 accomplished something. What I mean is that from the point of view of 9/11 as a western conspiracy, it didn't accomplish anything that simply allowing a terrorist attack to happen on its own wouldn't have done, and with a lot less hassle and massively less risk. This strikes me as an awfully difficult intellectual hurdle to clear for someone suggesting that 9/11 was a western conspiracy.

>>>Read Crossing the Rubicon, by Michael C. Ruppert -- or at least its closing "Summation to the Jury" -- and you will find that there is indeed a very coherent and all-too-convincing, quite disgusting alternative hypothesis which passes the tests failed by the government's official conspiracy narrative.

While I remain extremely skeptical for reasons I've listed, it's nice to see that there is someone actually putting forth a coherent theory, and one that doesn't seem to involve controlled demolition. (?) If get the time, perhaps I'll take a look. (Before you're critical of me for not making the time, incidentally, please consider that any time I put into this is time that doesn't go into working for accountability and social justice in other respects. That goes for the 9/11 criticism movement in general as well. I mean, Cheney/Bush have indisputably committed war crimes and more. All the time these critics are spending on 9/11 criticism, which is almost certainly always going to remain a fringe movement, is not going to to address issues that we might actually be able to make progress on.)

Jamey Hecht's picture

Jamey Hecht
(authenticated user)

Epistemology Is An Affair of Constraints, Not Adjectives

Hello Segue,
You wrote: "Yes, this idea that 'staging 9/11 as an inside job... is likely to work only if there actually exists an active network of anti-American terrorists who are deeply committed to killing Americans in response to U.S. policy' seems to me entirely unconvincing. It doesn't even address the idea that a staged attack on American soil is both incredibly risky and doesn't really seem to accomplish anything."

If you mean the risk of having the angry patsies escape the planners' control, yes, that's a risk, but even if they confess and/or accuse, no American majority would believe a "lone nut" (nobody did -- Oswald told the TV cameras, "I didn't shoot anybody. I'm just a patsy!" and we were all asked to believe he had done the unthinkable in order to become famous) nor believe a group of genuinely suicidal, dark-complected non-Christian foreigners, potential murderers who are clearly committed to the extreme Wahabism of clerics like Qutb and Obeid and company.

Surely you don't mean the risk the terrorists themselves would be taking, since they specialize in suicide missions in the first place.

The idea that 9/11 did not accomplish anything is so strange I'm having trouble understanding it. If you think 19 Saudis did it, well, they uplifted the humiliated spirits of defeated peoples all over the world who hated America for some very very good reasons and some equally bad reasons.
If you think the people who made it possible (by neutralizing the USAF) and engineered much of it were Cheney and his circle, well, they got a blank check for a "war that will not end in our lifetime; they embezzled a trillion dollars through the military budget [with no-bid contracts, cronyism, non-performances of services, and outright larceny]; they killed 1.5 million Iraqis and built permanent US bases in that country; they got access to what they mistakenly though would be a gigantic petroleum deposit in the Caspian; they became free to destroy the Bill of Rights and did so, and on, and on. Didn't all that stuff happen? Didn't you hear Bush drawl "Suptimber thu Ulevinth" a hundred times per appearance? It got him everything he wanted, and did the same for the major players in Cheney's circle.

You then wrote, "I admit I'm a little daunted by the many different objections 9/11 deniers [I prefer the term: critics] have to the official story, but for the most part I'm incapable of verifying the veracity of these claims without trusting someone who I basically don't have any reason to trust." An astute piece of introspection, which I respect.
When you first learned that the objects around you were composed of atoms, that was a matter of belief, rather than knowledge. Wittgenstein says, "the child learns by believing the adult." Later, if your confidence in the atomic hypothesis were to decay somehow, or if you simply became truly curious about how we have come to embrace it, you would begin a course of research, would you not? It might take you 3 or 4 years, depending on your outer and inner resources, but you could arrive at a pretty strong grasp of the ideas and the evidence that amount to our knowledge of atomic theory --- a grasp which would no longer depend very heavily upon your trust in other people's claims. The reason Creationists are so exasperating is because they assume that their interlocutors know about as much as they do about the subject at hand -- and that their own level of knowledge is a good picture of the amount of knowledge that's out there to be had.

Gerald Posner's book "Case Closed" is disinformation, because the footnotes in the back of the book often lead to sources that do not exist -- they are make-believe. Often Posner misquotes someone as saying the opposite of what she actually wrote or said (a trick he learned from the Warren Commission, though the Soviets were fond of it too). Harold Weisberg's critique of Posner, on the contrary, can be verified in many ways; for instance, he discovered that the section of curb from Elm Street that was examined by the FBI for its bullet mark was the wrong section of curb; the FBI's own records indicated that they had already destroyed the real 1963 curb from Dealey Plaza beforehand. That's complicated, but it is not murky.

You wrote: "Also, and correct me if I've missed this in what I've read—there's still no alternative theory to the official theory being presented. All of these objections to the official account add up to nothing coherent at all." I appreciate the thoughtfulness of your qualifier, "correct me if I've missed this." There seems to be an asymmetry between the spirit of that phrase and the zeal of this descriptor: "nothing coherent at all." Read Crossing the Rubicon, by Michael C. Ruppert -- or at least its closing "Summation to the Jury" -- and you will find that there is indeed a very coherent and all-too-convincing, quite disgusting alternative hypothesis which passes the tests failed by the government's official conspiracy narrative.

You wrote: "...there's already plenty of verifiable cause to try Cheney/Bush for crimes against humanity, I don't actually see much point in pursuing it further." Excellent point. But I am from New York, and I want the bastards who did this to be exposed. I do not expect every American to be as indignant about 9/11 as I am, but there are many who are far more indignant and angry. In 2002 the whole country was saying "we will never forget." They couldn't wait to forget.

Thank you for your time.
Jamey Hecht, PhD
www.oilempire.us
www.jameyhecht.com

Anonymous's picture


(anonymous user)

Problem with activation

Hi there, I dont know if I am writing in a proper board but I have got a problem with activation, link i receive in email is not working... http://beingism.org/?4e48c01209c35a69c356b9bcf74,

CausalCrunch's picture

CausalCrunch
(Beingism Founder)

I just tested it by creating

I just tested it by creating a new account, and it worked just fine. Try again?

CausalCrunch's picture

CausalCrunch
(Beingism Founder)

One other thing. Humans

One other thing. Humans (especially those in the West) are uncomfortable with ambiguity. Perhaps we'll never know what happened. But our need to know one way or the other often causes us to leap to a conclusion because that's less mentally stressful than having to live with the ambiguity of never knowing. Living with ambiguity is a skill that everyone should develop, however, because much of our lives involves ambiguities. And failing to learn to live comfortably with them can cause much damage if we act on the (possibly false) conclusions that we force ourselves to conclude for fear of ambiguity.

Jamey Hecht's picture

Jamey Hecht
(authenticated user)

"You Go Not Till I Set You Up A Glass..." (Hamlet, III, iv)

Hi Causal,

If you do ever read the posting I offered:

http://poetrypoliticscollapse.blogspot.com/2009/03/our-conversation-on-9...

...you may find that I have quite directly addressed the issue you raised.

Also, I find that appeals to general claims about "human nature" are worse than useless in discussions of concrete historical situations. Anyone who has dedicated even a single year to the (unfunded, stigmatized, and expensive) search for a coherent and defensible, legally viable case regarding the responsibility for some real-world crime (say, the 9/11 murders) will be appalled by your notion that, in such a matter, "our need to know one way or the other often causes us to leap to a conclusion because that's less mentally stressful than having to live with the ambiguity of never knowing." Let me try gently to point out the perversity of this notion -- that the one who engages in snap decision-making about a case is the dedicated researcher(!) -- not the breezy agnostic, nor the smirking mainstreamer (the sort who throws around words like "crackpot" and "buff" and "conspiracy theorist"). Imagine:

Person A executes years of conscientious effort in pursuit of the strongest hypothesis about a murder, having been shocked and hurt by it in an unforgettable way. S/he sifts evidence, interviews people, tirelessly reads, writes, attends conferences, files FOIA requests, spends money and time in vetting and collating data, all the while enduring smug mockery and worse.

Person B gives the same murder an annual 5 minutes' thought. Because after those 5 minutes he still doesn't know anything, he announces "Perhaps we'll never know what happened," and then declares that it is not he, but the diligent researcher, who has made a snap decision! And, paradoxically, he claims that the reason Person A is engaged in his/her tireless research is because of a failure to tolerate ambiguity!

On the contrary. It is the researcher who is neck-deep in ambiguities, wrestling them down and applying Occam's razor with a hard-won, robust knowledge of the demonstrable facts. It is the armchair pontificator about "humans" who has trouble with ambiguity: after all, to dismiss the question and make it disappear behind a truism ("people like certainty" or "we'll never know every single detail") is completely different from undergoing the ambivalence and mental labor to which the genuine confrontation of ambiguity gives rise.

Read my posting. Some people are more intellectually different from you than you may know.

http://poetrypoliticscollapse.blogspot.com/2009/03/our-conversation-on-9...

CausalCrunch's picture

CausalCrunch
(Beingism Founder)

You assume too much....

I wasn't advocating being 'breezy.' Perhaps you missed my comment on pushing for investigations? Also, you should know that I've invested an extremely large amount of my time researching this topic. So, I'm not idly dismissing things. You also may wish to use different words than "perversity" "worse than useless" "appalled by your notion." Also, you may wish to avoid assuming things like that I was advocating sitting around doing nothing, or being a "smirking mainstreamer." Not only were these assumptions incorrect in my case, using such hyperbolic/antagonistic sounding interactions polarizes the discussion. I'd rather keep things civil.

I have read much of the page you reference.

However. To be intellectually honest, sometimes we must be willing to admit our ignorance. About 9/11, not enough is known. Investigations with subpoena power must be held. All current theories I've researched (including the official one) has large holes in it which need the kind of investigation that you indicate in your examples need to happen. Until then, someone pushing half-baked theories (those with insufficient evidence to back them up) rightly marginalizes themselves. If there was enough evidence, we wouldn't have so many theories, because one would fit the evidence so nicely that the others would succumb. Reality is obviously much more complex than any theory has taken account.

I'm not saying that someone investigating it might not approach it with a theory in mind. That's science. However, a scientific theory, and the kind of theory we hear on websites and radio shows where people are pounding the table insisting this or that about 9/11 without admitting the lack of evidence are two different things. One is a tool to discover the truth. The other is often an emotional salve used to avoid the reality of ambiguity. No respected scientist would pound the table insisting her theory is true BEFORE the investigation had come up with sufficient evidence. They don't try to convince others to believe in their theory before the evidence shows it's truth.

The public may not (and seemingly doesn't) have the ability to figure this out by their own. We may need the help of bodies with subpoena power, and the finances to do the research necessary.

I advocate poking holes in the official theory, while pushing for investigations.

Jamey Hecht's picture

Jamey Hecht
(authenticated user)

Well Said.

Thanks for a good posting.

Sincerely,
Jamey

CausalCrunch's picture

CausalCrunch
(Beingism Founder)

I'm more agnostic on this. I

I'm more agnostic on this. I say no theory -- government "official" theory, or any alternates -- are so far credible. The government theory is obviously wrong, even as some congressional investigations have shown, but no other "conspiracy" theory really meets the facts or smell test well either. What we need is a credible investigation.

So I think the general thrust of the 9/11 Truthers is right on. The idea of getting the truth, because we don't have it yet. It's when they break down into adamantly pushing a particular theory that they lose their credibility. They essentially end up doing the same thing as the government, attempting to push a theory before we have all the evidence necessary to have a reasonable picture of what happened.

The government is most definitely incorrect. Let's not follow their example. Demand investigations, don't push half baked theories.

Jamey Hecht's picture

Jamey Hecht
(authenticated user)

Agnostic, Indeed

An agnostic is literally a person who "does not know."

In matters of religion, there are two very different kinds of agnostic.

One says, "I don't know if there is a God. Others have apparently arrived at what they experience as "knowledge" that there is, or is not, a God. I am not among their number."

The other kind of agnostic says, "I don't know if there is a God. Furthermore, given the wild conceptual entailments of the concept of God (as defined by text X), if the concept of "knowledge" is to have a (robust) meaning, it must be that nobody whatsoever can know whether or not there is a God."

I regard each of these as a respectable position. But this term "agnostic" is best applied to the religious domain, and not, I suggest, to any other.

Of course, one cannot be agnostic as to the question of whether the Sun is really larger than the Earth; whether one has eyes or not; whether the Earth is older than one's own bicycle, etc. The only kind of doubt that can arise about such questions is an exotic kind, called "philosophical" doubt.

In a legal matter, there is a concept called "reasonable" doubt. It is not based on general notions of human behavior, nor on a cursory reading of newspapers, nor of books full of facts expertly tainted with small but crucial memes of disinformation (whose authors or publishers often have demonstrable connections to the Central Intelligence Agency e.g., David Corn, Chip Berlett, Gerald Posner, Bob Woodruff, etc.). It is based on a reading of the facts as assembled in a discovery process. When the people who control subpoena power are themselves involved in the crime, that power is neutralized. Independent researchers --some incompetent, some compromised, and some possessed of diligence, integrity, and wisdom about the way things actually work-- are the only ones left who can find the most facts, defeat the most falsehood, and infer the strongest hypothesis about what happened. For this dangerous ability they are villified, mocked, or ignored. Nobody implicated by the book I have repeatedly urged you to read --CROSSING THE RUBICON: THE DECLINE OF THE AMERICAN EMPIRE AT THE END OF THE AGE OF OIL-- has ever sued the author (Michael Ruppert) nor the editor (myself). This is because (1) doing so would bring dreaded media attention to the book; (2) such a person might well lose such a lawsuit.

It does not seem to have occurred to you that while you "do not know" what happened, there is at least one person (since the perpetrators were human beings) who does know; that it is by no means impossible for some people fully to detect what other people have secretly performed; that this craft of detection and deduction has been practiced for centuries and is going on in a million rooms all over the globe even now; that hundreds of miles of library shelves are lined with books about crimes committed in the past, and that many of these books are more strongly argued & verified and vindicated than others. That you don't know, does not mean that nobody knows.

When the truth is a bloody horror that costs you your basic assumptions about the culture in which your identity was formed, you've got a big investment in "agnosticism." Some people do choose a fake certainty over difficult ambiguity. Others, far more numerous, choose a fake ambiguity --"we will never know; we must remain agnostic"-- over a heavy burden of (not certainty, but) available and painful confidence in a robust hypothesis. Of course you haven't done the reading! It would, in Shakespeare's words, "harrow up thy soul, freeze thy young blood, cause each particular hair to stand on end..."

Indeed, I DEFY YOU TO READ either of these two books and remain "agnostic" --not on every nuance of the vanished past, but on the central question of whether the individuals who had access to the power to make WAR were, or were not, directly involved in the crime:

DEEP POLITICS AND THE DEATH OF JFK, by Peter Dale Scott
CROSSING THE RUBICON, by Michael Ruppert.

Thank you.
Sincerely,
Jamey Hecht, PhD
http://www.jameyhecht.com
http://www.poetrypoliticscollapse.blogspot.com

ineptsegue's picture

ineptsegue
(Beingism Founder)

I don't think CausalCrunch

I don't think CausalCrunch was trying to say here (and correct me if I'm wrong, Causal) that nobody knows what happened on 9/11 or that it is impossible in principle to know. Rather, I believe he means that although he sees reason to be skeptical of the official account, he doesn't have reason to believe any other theory, either—especially when specific theories are in short supply.

Personally, I have minimal confidence in the reliability of *anyone* involved with this debate. I am quite aware that having a *desire* to believe something has a lot more to do with whether a person believes something than whether there is evidence to support that belief. People tend to see the evidence that supports their positions while ignoring that which opposes it, and people have emotional reasons for believing all kinds of different (often crazy) notions. Thus your description of texts "full of facts expertly tainted with small but crucial memes of disinformation" are, I would argue—so far as any reasonable person who has not devoted large portions of her or his life to the subject can tell—all that really exist on the subject of 9/11. I don't have the time (nor the general inclination to regard these theories as potentially plausible) to do all the research myself, and I can't accept arguments from authority on the subject because alternative theorists as regards 9/11 are just as capable as anyone else of having vested interests in their positions and feeling strongly motivated to justify them (especially in light of being treated as nut jobs by much of society). Indeed, we can be pretty sure from the fact that there are many very disparate alternative 9/11 theories which are contradictory to each other that at least most alternative theorists are doing exactly that. The official account may well be incorrect, but that doesn't make it a western conspiracy.

To my lack of trust in those giving me information about 9/11, add the lack of compelling reason for taking such a huge risk by staging something like 9/11, and to me the "western conspiracy" angle ends up looking (mostly) implausible.

CausalCrunch's picture

CausalCrunch
(Beingism Founder)

You're correct about my

You're correct about my meaning, Segue. I'd also point out that I'm by no means invested in my 'agnosticism.' It just happens to be the current state of my belief even after a great amount of research on the matter. As far as reading any additional books on the matter, I'm disinclined to. Mainly because I have so many books on other topics I know much less about that I consider equally important that are higher in my reading list. Also, like Segue indicated, the other sources I've studied on 9/11 were equally touted as the ultimate 'proof' of their particular theory, but left me still agnostic. Maybe I will read them, though. Someday.

Oh, and 'agnostic' is used in many contexts, and I can't see a reason why not. It seems rather useful and accurate.

ineptsegue's picture

ineptsegue
(Beingism Founder)

A weird combination of incompetent and omnipotent

Another thing that gets me is that if 9/11 really were a conspiracy by the U.S. government, it would have been utterly moronic to frame Al Quida for it (whether or not we're talking about the government having created Al Quida in the first place like my friend claimed) rather than some Iraqi organization. The invasion of Iraq was utterly arbitrary and disconnected from 9/11, and only feeble attempts were made to connect it to the so-called 'war on terror.' Certainly in retrospect 9/11 appears to have provided a sufficient smokescreen to get the job done, but from their perspective at the time that would have been a very hard sell, and for that matter one that later appears to have had a significant amount to do with the Republicans falling out of power in '06 and even more so in '08. I just don't see how this can be explained.

This is a fallacy I see too often on the left—this notion that the Republican Party and the neocons are can get away with nearly anything they attempt. That's silly. Yes, in many meaningful ways, the U.S. is not a democracy. We are increasingly giving way too much power to the President, and our nation is in practice without a doubt run by corporations. However, it's quite obvious that their power has significant limits. This is still a very free nation in many ways. For that matter, it doesn't seem that anyone who would blatantly murder 3,000 civilians and countryfolk to create a justification to go to war and kill even more people in another nation would balk at rigging election. Yet for some reason, the Republicans couldn't get the job done in the last couple of elections. Why? Obviously, they don't have the means.